How Much is Too Much Wine, Old Rosé and Hard-Won Wisdom with the Women of Ill Repute, Wendy Mesley & Maureen Holloway
Introduction
What might surprise you about Rosé wine? Is being a supertaster an advantage in the wine industry? Do you feel you’re drinking too much wine?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m being interviewed by Wendy Mesley and Maureen Holloway for their podcast, Women of Ill Repute.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
Join me on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube Live Video
Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.
I’ll be jumping into the comments as we watch it together so that I can answer your questions in real-time.
I want to hear from you! What’s your opinion of what we’re discussing? What takeaways or tips do you love most from this chat? What questions do you have that we didn’t answer?
Want to know when we go live?
Add this to your calendar:
Highlights
- Why didn’t I apologize after being called out for using other people’s reviews on my website?
- How does the herd mentality bring out the worst in people online?
- What is it about the wine industry that continues to feed into the deeply-rooted sexism?
- How does wine marketing perpetuate stereotypes and negatively impact women?
- What does it mean to be a super taster?
- How do I review so many bottles of wine?
- Why is it important for a wine reviewer to expectorate?
- What is it about artichokes that makes them hard to pair with alcohol?
- What might surprise you about Rosé wine?
- What are the five aspects of tasting wine?
- How has the vocabulary of wine evolved over time?
- What can you do to develop your smell vocabulary?
Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips
About Women of Ill Repute
Women of Ill Repute is a compliment. And not just for women! Wendy Mesley and Maureen Holloway have left CBC and CHFI to chat with sassy women about sex, family, politics, and media. Lots of secrets and no room for shame. Is it journalism or comedy? It’s both. Smart talk with tv and radio stars, comedians, authors, lawyers, politicos, restaurant icons and more. All of them brave, fierce and funny.
Resources
Tag Me on Social
Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:
Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
Maureen Holloway (00:00):
You get sent all this stuff and you take notes and you go down the row and you sip all these wines and you clean your palette. Tell me more then what happens then what happens?
Natalie MacLean (00:12):
The difference between tasting and drinking is thinking and spitting, so you do have to expect rates spit or else you, you’ll be sloshed. The best time to taste in the day is at 9:00 AM and facing 30 full body Cabernets from chili is not exactly a lovely thing. Although I have no sympathy for my job. I will taste usually later in the day, compare, like to line up those bottles. I only take an ounce or two and then spit it out. I reco all the bottles and pass them on to other sommelier or writers here in the community so that the wineries who are sending me samples will get more than one review.
(00:57):
Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie McLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle please and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 257. What might surprise you about Rose wine is being a super taster, really an advantage in the wine industry, and do you feel you might be drinking a little too much wine? In today’s episode, you’ll hear stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Wendy Meley, former CBC anchor for the National and Maureen Holloway, former host of CH FI’s Morning Show, who together now host the popular Women of Ill Repute podcast.
(02:16):
I love that title. Their guests have included former Chief Justice Beverly McLaughlin, comedian Rick Mercer, novelists, Louise Penny, and Anne-Marie McDonald talk show host Marilyn Dennis, and musician Jan Arden. They’re actually interviewing me in this extremely candid conversation about the wine industry and related issues, but first, I’d like to share a snippet from a longer review of my new book, wine Witch on Fire, rising from the Ashes of Divorce Defamation and Drinking Too Much by Dr. Karen Valara, the publisher and owner of the Picton Gazette. This is an engaging, funny, witty book. Ms is excellent on anything to do with wine and Frank about the realities of her work. There is an honesty on the page here that is not easy to achieve. What started as a calling out of a very successful critic spiraled into a sustained groundless attack enabled by the quasi anonymity of the internet and the culture of misogyny that Mars, the clubby enclaves of the wine industry, its assertion of male power to subjugate in silence, which brought national attention to the culture such as that exposed at the Norman Hardy Winery by a globe and male investigation in 2018 that harms young women.
(03:39):
But what makes this book sing even amid the darkness of canvases is its Witt reading. It is like having a glass or three with a very good friend. If you’ve read the book or are reading it, I’d love to hear from you at [email protected] if you haven’t got your copy yet and would like to support it and this podcast that I do on a volunteer basis, please order it from any online book retailer no matter where you live. Every little bit helps spread its message of hope, justice, and resilience. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all the retailers [email protected] slash 2 5 7. Okay, on with the show.
Maureen Holloway (04:30):
Well, I may not know a lot about wine, but I do know what I like.
Wendy Mesley (04:35):
So what do you like?
Maureen Holloway (04:36):
Wine?
Wendy Mesley (04:39):
Yeah, it’s that simple. Me too. Orange wine,
Natalie MacLean (04:42):
Red wine,
Wendy Mesley (04:43):
White wine. I like everything maybe too much or there’s that study according to that study. I
Maureen Holloway (04:48):
Don’t want la la, la, la la. That study. No, I don’t want to hear about that study, but I will admit to spending a significant portion of my grocery dollar on wine.
Wendy Mesley (05:00):
So fess up then. How much do
Maureen Holloway (05:03):
You drink? How much do I drink?
Wendy Mesley (05:05):
Yeah,
Maureen Holloway (05:06):
No, I’d rather tell you how much I make or how often I have sex actually.
Wendy Mesley (05:13):
Really?
Maureen Holloway (05:13):
Yeah.
Wendy Mesley (05:14):
Not at that.
Maureen Holloway (05:17):
It’s a red theme.
Wendy Mesley (05:20):
Yeah. So anyway, our guest this week, she actually knows a lot about wine, the wine industry, sort of a fair amount about journalism, a lot about marketing, and particularly how it targets women.
Maureen Holloway (05:32):
We’re talking to Natalie McLean, who’s author of a highly successful newsletter, as well as several books about wine, including a brand new one called Wine Witch on Fire. And although it seems that she has a dream job, she had a terrible experience within the industry that kind of mirrors what happened to you, Wendy, when you left the CBC.
Wendy Mesley (05:52):
Yeah,
Maureen Holloway (05:52):
We’re going to go there, talk a little bit about that,
Wendy Mesley (05:56):
Just a little. We are going to talk about my time at this A, B, C, but mostly we’re going to talk about how sexism is in the wine industry, what a wine taster actually does, and how much is too much.
Maureen Holloway (06:09):
And while we have, we’re going to get some tips, I hope, like what to look for in a less expensive wine or what wine goes with artichokes.
Wendy Mesley (06:17):
What? With artichokes?
Maureen Holloway (06:20):
Yeah, that’s a tough pair.
Wendy Mesley (06:21):
You really eat that many artichokes. Really?
Natalie MacLean (06:27):
I
Maureen Holloway (06:27):
Like artichokes.
Natalie MacLean (06:28):
All right. With no further ado, Natalie McClain,
Maureen Holloway (06:31):
Thank you for putting up with that intro. It was really nice to see you out in your field there.
Natalie MacLean (06:36):
It’s great to be here, Wendy and Moe. I think we could have this conversation over a glass or two. You seem like my people, my wine people. Honestly, Wendy and I have a lot of
Maureen Holloway (06:46):
Conversations over a glass or three, but not usually while we’re doing the podcast, but I mean, we could start at any time.
Wendy Mesley (06:53):
So in the background, there’s this vineyard or something, so you’re obviously outstanding in your field. Where are you?
Natalie MacLean (07:00):
I’m a field reporter. Yeah, that’s a painting from California, and I did get permission from the artist to use it as my backdrop. Yes, I’ve learned a lot in the last 10 years.
Maureen Holloway (07:09):
Oh, wow.
Natalie MacLean (07:10):
But yeah, it’s the old Engle Nook winery now, the Francis Ford Coppola where you can go see all the movie memorabilia and that sort of thing in his winery.
Wendy Mesley (07:20):
Oh, that’s nice. I want to get this out of the way because I must admit, I knew you were a wine reviewer, and I sort of knew about that, but I didn’t know until I read the book. It’s about drinking. It’s about divorce, but it’s also about defamation. That’s in the title.
Maureen Holloway (07:36):
Oh, the three D’s?
Natalie MacLean (07:38):
Yeah. Yeah. All the dismal dss, the publishing team said you cannot have delirium, destitution or diarrhea.
Wendy Mesley (07:44):
That’s all a lot. So anyway, I was kind of struck by the parallels and then I thought, let’s just ignore this. I hate bringing my story about what happened at the CBC and so on onto the podcast, but is it okay if we talk about that? So yeah, so I mean, your thing was not to go deeply into the weeds. Your thing was basically it was you quoted a bunch of other people’s reviews and you didn’t properly cite their references and their backgrounds and so on and so forth. Mine was a lot more complicated. Basically, I used the N word. I should never have used the N word. I used the whole word, but it was with a bunch of colleagues and
Natalie MacLean (08:27):
It
Maureen Holloway (08:28):
Was not used in a derogatory term. This
Natalie MacLean (08:30):
Is important to point out.
Maureen Holloway (08:32):
You were actually
Natalie MacLean (08:33):
Quoting the
Maureen Holloway (08:34):
Title of another piece that you guys wanted to explore.
Wendy Mesley (08:38):
Yeah, well, George Floyd had just been killed and by the police. It was a very emotional time, and I heard people, I should not have used that word, and I apologized immediately. We can get into that because you sort of apologized without apologizing. So anyway, it blew up, and I sort of expected that the CBC would come to my defense after punishing me, which they should have anyway, your situation, the whole thing blew up overnight, and I got completely trashed. You got completely trashed, but you handled things differently. First of all, you actually had a lawyer, which I never had, and the lawyer told you, whatever you do, do not apologize. So how did you figure out how to get out of that hole?
Natalie MacLean (09:24):
Sure, so sorry is the most expensive word in the English language because it admits guilt and it can be used litigiously against you. I didn’t go to journalism school, and this isn’t excuse number one, but I just was so naive. This was back in 2012, kind of the heyday of aggregators. So Huffington Post and Rotten Tomatoes and so on, and when I started quoting these reviews that were actually on the LCBO, the government liquor store site for Ontario, it was because I’d noticed some other sites doing it anyway, I am a glass half full kind of gal, so I thought, I’m not going to ask them to take down my reviews. I’m just going to do it too, because doesn’t that provide more context for a wine somebody else’s opinion? In addition to mine wrong, the legal advice I got was that I was within the bounds of fair use. Well, it’s called Fair Dealing in Canada, and it’s good if we don’t go down the legal rabbit hole because this will get very tedious, very fast.
Maureen Holloway (10:28):
We’ll never get out.
Natalie MacLean (10:29):
Yeah, this will be your lowest rated podcast ever. But it didn’t matter what the legalities were or that I offered to fix them or whatever it was, the accusation ignited, literally a bonfire, and then it just spiraled from there to other websites and newspapers around the world from the South Africa Times to the New York Post. It was crazy. All within the span of like 24, maybe 48 hours. So we didn’t talk a lot about cancel culture back in 2012, but I think I can speak from experience what it’s like, and even when you try to jump in and do any explaining, you add fuel to the fire. So whether you explain it goes wild, whether you don’t explain, then they say, Hey, she’s not answering the accusations.
Wendy Mesley (11:26):
I found that so interesting. You chose to fight back, so you gave interviews and you told people that you had made a mistake and that you were going to fix it, but you also kind of told people to screw off. Whereas I had worked at CBC for 40 years and it took a year of being investigated, and during that time I just thought, they’re going to want me back. I’ve been here for 40 years. I made the mistake. I hurt people without ever meaning to, but they’re going to want me back. They didn’t want me back. They were perfectly happy to feed the trolls. And then the trolls take over, and as you say, in your case, the trolls, they went crazy, including some of your colleagues.
Maureen Holloway (12:07):
They went crazy was I looked at the whole thread after when all this broke. Then what was the day after Christmas or it was a week before.
Natalie MacLean (12:17):
It was just a week before my nightmare before Christmas.
Maureen Holloway (12:21):
And it was just the vitriol and the piling on.
Natalie MacLean (12:26):
And I think it’s sort of the false fellowship of hating the same person. People want to be part of something larger, and so they’ll find some cause whether for good or bad, but there’s some sort of beyond her mentality that takes over online. And I think it’s made even worse these days with bots encouraging people to get bolder and bolder with what I call their keyboard courage. So it is really hard. You can’t stop it. The only thing you can hope for is it dies from lack of oxygen or they find the next person to go after
Maureen Holloway (13:04):
Which they do, which it does, and they do.
Natalie MacLean (13:07):
They always do. And that’s how mine ended. Yeah,
Wendy Mesley (13:10):
Yeah. It’s interesting what it does to friends too. I had a very, very close friend who two years after the fact said to me, Wendy, I’m really sorry. I should have stood up for you more than I did. Because so many people thought, well, nobody’s talking about it. I didn’t talk about it for a year. You did, you gave interviews, you were public, and I didn’t talk about it. And so people were even a journalist at another network in Ottawa told a friend of mine. Oh yeah. Well, she called somebody the end. No, I didn’t. I would never do. So you’re right. I mean, people, trolls, they basically take information and they use it to advance their own agenda, whatever that agenda is, whether it’s for good or ill, it’s just, anyway, it took you 10 years to write this, and now here you’re,
Natalie MacLean (13:56):
I’m a slow writer. After five years, I thought, well, this story just keeps ricocheting around in my head. I need to let it out at least on paper. And so I did as a private exercise for making sense of what had happened, but I had no intention of publishing a book.
Wendy Mesley (14:15):
I’ve got a whole stash of notes and screenshots, and they’re all, yeah, so
Maureen Holloway (14:22):
Give it time,
Wendy Mesley (14:22):
Wendy done. I’ve got quotes. I’ve got proof of people saying things that would get them fired for way worse than what I supposedly did. Yeah. So another five years we’ll be done
Maureen Holloway (14:35):
Or you let it go. I mean, I’ve not experienced what you guys have experienced and had my own traumas, but nothing quite like that. And there’s also an argument for saying, okay happened, but my talent hasn’t been taken, my talent. Well, whatever our talent is wasn’t taken away, and let’s focus on that, which I think you’ve also done because you have climbed out of the ashes of that year. You also underwent a divorce. It was just the worst year ever.
Natalie MacLean (15:06):
It was a bad vintage. It was a really bad vintage. Personally and professionally.
Wendy Mesley (15:10):
A lot of Ds.
Natalie MacLean (15:11):
Yeah, exactly. All the dss,
Wendy Mesley (15:13):
You talk about sexism in the industry. I mean, Maureen and radio face a lot of sexism. We can talk about that in television. Certainly there’s a lot, but how bad is it in the wine industry?
Natalie MacLean (15:25):
It’s pretty deep rooted. I can’t avoid all these puns, but sorry, I’ll try to find another metaphor if I can, but it’s my world. So the wine world is so I said, so clubby, it’s much less formalized than the restaurant industry. So most wineries in Canada and the US have fewer than 20 employees. Most don’t have an HR department, let alone a harassment policy. And all the mentorships or training is usually one-on-one. So whether you want to become a winemaker or a sommelier or whatever you want to do in the industry, it’s usually a one-on-one relationship with someone with a much bigger power differential, which of course lends itself to abuse. Lots of studies have been out there, I mean, 2012, 10 years ago, so must be all better and brighter now. It’s not. They did a 2018 study where 89% of women in the hospitality industry, which includes wineries and restaurants, experienced some form of sexual harassment. In 2020, the New York Times broke the story of the court of master sommelier where there was allegations and 21 women came forward about getting sexually harassed by the court of master sommelier, which is a really hoity-toity kind of a designation you can get in the wine world. That’s 2020. And I think there are more stories that are going to come out. It’s, it’s really hard to talk about it in the wine industry, and that’s another reason I’m doing this book. I figure you can’t kill me twice. Maybe I’m wrong, I could be wrong.
Maureen Holloway (17:01):
This is sort of a corollary of that. This is how women are treated within the industry then. Yeah, outside is consumers. That’s something that you’ve been very outspoken about. And I was just saying to Wendy before you joined us, that immediately if I see something that’s pink and says, well, girls Night Out is probably the most prominent example or has a rose in the bottom of the bottle, it’s like, stop that. Stop selling me that based on pretty, and it’s been insidious and it’s encouraged women to embrace the idea that you’re not having fun unless you’re getting bombed.
Wendy Mesley (17:38):
I never thought of, I’m a rah rah feminist kind of person, but I never thought that my drinking was actually a feminist reaction.
Natalie MacLean (17:46):
It’s like the Virginia slim cigarettes of the 1960s, those torches of freedom you can declare
Maureen Holloway (17:51):
You’ve come a long way, baby. Not if you’re still calling me baby.
Natalie MacLean (17:55):
Exactly, exactly. Pour yourself another glass.
Wendy Mesley (17:57):
But what about the artichokes? That’s what Maureen really wants to know.
Maureen Holloway (18:01):
Well, no. Well, we can get into pairings, but the practical stuff, but I want to ask you before we get into that very specific stuff. So I was fascinated, and it reminded me, I think Elvis Costello or Frank Zappo once said, writing about music is like dancing about architecture. And I thought that applies to writing about wine, which is such a sensual and physical experience is tough. You are a, what do you call ’em, not a super taster.
Natalie MacLean (18:32):
Yes. That doesn’t mean I drink a lot, though I used to. It just means you have a lot of taste buds. She said they live in a sensory neon world. It’s like having 500 fingers instead of five. So
Wendy Mesley (18:46):
I’ve seen that in the movie. I think
Natalie MacLean (18:54):
So, very attuned.
Wendy Mesley (18:55):
Yes. Well, that’s what we say anyway. Very attuned. Very attuned. So can you not be a sommelier if you’re not a super taster?
Natalie MacLean (19:03):
Oh, sure. You definitely can be a sommelier. You can be a wine writer and so on. It’s not a prerequisite. In fact, some would argue that it can work against you sometimes because you will come across a very big wine, a full bodied, lots of oak, lots of alcohol, and it’s just like, turn it down. It’s like the guy who’s too loud at the bar. It’s like you don’t want to take that one home, but you have to recognize there’s a broad spectrum of pallets. And so when I review wines, I’m reviewing it for people who love full-bodied wines. You love this wine, that kind of thing. Yeah,
Maureen Holloway (19:39):
I was fascinated to hear about the setup that you have. So you’ve got cases of wine all over your house that people send you and you try to taste 30 bottles a day. So I have two questions. Is there a lot of spitting? And secondly, what happens to all the open bottles and do you need any help with that?
Wendy Mesley (20:03):
Can we come? I guess
Natalie MacLean (20:05):
That’s three questions. Yeah. Recycling day here is just an embarrassment on the street with the crowds fighting.
Maureen Holloway (20:13):
It is here too, and I’m not, I hide my blue box, but tell me, so you get sent all this stuff and you take notes and you go down the row and you sip all these wines and you clean your palate. Tell me more
Wendy Mesley (20:30):
Then what happens
Maureen Holloway (20:31):
Then what happens?
Natalie MacLean (20:33):
The difference between tasting and drinking is thinking and spitting. So you do have to expect rate spit or else you will be sloshed. The best time to taste in the day is at 9:00 AM and facing 30 full body cabernets from chili is not exactly a lovely thing, although I have no sympathy. No sympathy for my job. But yeah, I will taste usually actually later in the day, compare, like to line up those bottles. And then what I do, I only take an ounce or two and then spit it out. I reco all the bottles and pass them on to other sommelier or writers here in the community so that the wineries who are sending me samples will get more than one review, of course. So
Wendy Mesley (21:18):
We’re not invited over, I guess, Maureen.
Maureen Holloway (21:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Natalie MacLean (21:22):
No, sadly my friends look like, oh, is that what you do with them? Oh, okay. Oh yeah.
Maureen Holloway (21:29):
Well, that’s very worthy. So what about the artichokes?
Natalie MacLean (21:33):
Oh, yeah.
Maureen Holloway (21:34):
So yeah, pairing also, you have a knack for pairing like unparalleled.
Natalie MacLean (21:39):
It’s my superpower. So artichokes getting to the heart of the matter. So I come from Nova Scotia, so it’s all about puns and cannot help myself anyway. So artichokes and asparagus both produce a natural organic compound called cerin, which tastes very bitter. So what happens is that after you eat artichokes, everything you eat and drink after that is going to taste sweeter by comparison. So that really wreaks havoc on wine, especially if you have maybe even an off dry, just a little bit of sweetness in your wine. It’s going to taste really cloying and sweet. So the answer or the recommendation I give is to go with a really bone dry white wine. So it’s going to bring up the fruit, make it taste a little sweeter, but not cloying, and your taste buds will be happy and your artichoke will be tasting better as well.
Maureen Holloway (22:34):
Good to know. So we’ve debunked the red, only red with red meat and only white with chicken that we’ve broken down those barriers, I guess. But wither rose.
Natalie MacLean (22:48):
Oh yes, rose all day. Although I’m supposed to be talking moderation after this book, or I’ll have
Maureen Holloway (22:54):
To learn anything we’ll get or we don’t.
Natalie MacLean (22:58):
Rose is a beautiful wine, just love it. So we have to forget the 1970s, eighties, sweet cloying syrupy pink stuff. Today’s roses are beautiful. They could be bone dry, not that they have to be bone dry to be good, because we shouldn’t be doing any wine shaming with people who like sweet wine. Can we stop doing that? But rose, I love because it has all of the flavor of a red wine often
Maureen Holloway (23:27):
It’s a baby red, isn’t it? I mean, a lot of people have no idea what rose is. Some people think it’s red and white poured together, which
Natalie MacLean (23:34):
Yeah, that would be the cheap way. But the good way is that you grow good red grapes and it’s called Sonya or bleeding, which doesn’t sound good, but it’s the runoff, the lighter pink juice from the first crush of the grapes. So it’s got all that flavor, but none of the heavy tan and oak and alcohol.
Wendy Mesley (23:54):
Well, I have a quote for you, and it’s from somebody who makes bread for a living and, well, I don’t know who it’s originally from, but it’s everything in moderation.
Maureen Holloway (24:02):
Including moderation.
Natalie MacLean (24:03):
Including
Wendy Mesley (24:04):
Moderation. Yeah, exactly. So I think we should apply that to drinking. So yeah. So you are like a spitter now, right? You used to drink a lot and now you drink just a little.
Maureen Holloway (24:15):
Yeah, that’s got to be tough. That has got to be really tough because you can’t not drink. That’s your job. And I would also, while we’re on the subject of tasting and spitting, I mean, do you get the full effect if you don’t swallow? And by the way, if you’re just joining us, we’re talking about wine.
Natalie MacLean (24:34):
It’s a good question. So there’s five aspects to tasting wine, the sight, the smell, the feel, the body, and the finish. The finish is how long after you swallow? Does that impression? Last? Five seconds is considered long as in all sensual pleasures. I think longer is better, but anyway, or one to two seconds is short. Three seconds medium. I know that sounds really technical, but it’s basically, is it still coming back to you like a good memory smell wise? Yeah, it is hard to evaluate the wines you are absorbing through your soft tissue of your mouth anyway. But if you really want to be exact, you let a small trickle go down. But when you’re tasting 30 wines and so on, I have to watch it in terms of how much consuming
Maureen Holloway (25:29):
Barnyard and I love barnyard. Yeah,
Natalie MacLean (25:32):
Fruit salad.
Wendy Mesley (25:33):
So how much of it is bss? Because they said dandelion this and dog poo this, and yeah, some of that stuff is like, yeah, you went to school and whatever. And some of it is, oh yeah, no, I do taste the cherries, but I don’t know who comes up with all that stuff. And is it all true? You can tell us top secret. Okay.
Natalie MacLean (26:00):
Okay. Just between us then lean in here. Okay. Yeah, the vocabulary of wine has evolved over time and needs to go a long way because there’s even embedded sexism with calling wines feminine and masculine and all the rest of it. But when it comes to this fruit salad stuff, I think that is wine succeeds where words fail because wine is a sensory experience and it’s hard to trap that in words. So people are trying and struggling with all of these descriptors. But when I teach my online courses, I tell my students, just smell everything in your world around you. When you cut open fruit or vegetables, that’s when it’s most pungent, smell it, develop a smell vocabulary. We live in a world that really, we’ve attuned our visual sense and our auditory sense, but we’ve lost our sniffer sense that we used to have to avoid dying. So smell everything. Smell the leather furniture. Just don’t let anybody see you doing it. Smell the cinnamon on your toast. I’m practicing for my wine course, but you have to develop your own vocabulary. One course that I taught, this woman said, well, that smells like the Dallas airport at everybody’s puzzled. We’re tasting Riesling, and then we put it together. Sometimes Riesling can taste or smell a bit like petrol, and it’s a good thing. So she’s smelling the jet fuel. Another one said that smells like my son’s geral cage.
Wendy Mesley (27:35):
We don’t read shark.
Maureen Holloway (27:38):
No,
Natalie MacLean (27:38):
You don’t. But it’s a whole lot more realistic.
Maureen Holloway (27:40):
Was it cedar?
Natalie MacLean (27:41):
Yes, the wood chips from
Maureen Holloway (27:43):
The
Natalie MacLean (27:44):
Gerbils cage. So yeah, you can be real about these descriptors. You don’t have to get all fancy. And it’s about developing your own smell vocabulary so that you heighten your own pleasure. I think what we appreciate or what we understand, we can appreciate a bit more, but it’s okay if you don’t want to just drink the wine. Don’t think
Wendy Mesley (28:01):
So. Just saying, I sometimes say to my husband, something as profound as it smells like dog poop, but in a good way.
Maureen Holloway (28:09):
In a good way. Well, yeah. Well, like manure. There’s that sort of earthy smell. Yeah,
Natalie MacLean (28:15):
Manure. That’s that barnyard thing. Yeah, absolutely. And it’s a common characteristic or aroma in great pinot noir. Some people don’t like it for obvious reasons. Sometimes it’s caused by Brettanomyces, which is a bacterial infection, but some people actually like it. So it just depends on your taste.
Maureen Holloway (28:34):
I love, I know it’s weird olfactory. I love the smell of markers and gasoline, you know that,
Natalie MacLean (28:40):
Oh, me too, gasoline. Oh, I could just stay at a gas station all day. But I think my father was a mechanic. I don’t know. But it’s weird about,
Maureen Holloway (28:48):
It’s just like that attraction. I don’t want to taste it. I don’t want to, but the smell is heady. Just as an aside, I remember, I think it was dip teak or when the first really expensive candles were being introduced, and there was one that was called Versailles, and I smelt it, and I said to the person, I think it was at Liberty in London, and I said, this smells a little bit like pee. And she said, well, it’s funny that you should say that because
Wendy Mesley (29:15):
It’s expensive. Pee
Maureen Holloway (29:17):
Very expensive. But she said, Versailles, they used to pee behind the tapestries. And so that smell, I know. Well, they didn’t have plumbing. And so that smell is sort of imbued in the wood in the, so if you go to Versailles, the distinctness from that, and so they put that in the candle, and I’m like, wow, that’s crazy. I didn’t buy it.
Wendy Mesley (29:38):
You should be a sommelier. I mean, if you could smell the
Maureen Holloway (29:42):
No, I have my sign. Well, that’s the other thing too. You have to be in a certain Wendy’s been recovering from a cold for the last six years.
Wendy Mesley (29:52):
Six weeks, six
Maureen Holloway (29:53):
Weeks, six weeks. And it’s allergy season right now. And you’ve got to be especially sensitive to that because covid, what if you lost your sense of taste and smell?
Natalie MacLean (30:03):
Well, during my terrible vintage, I did temporarily lose my sense of smell, and I was smelling, tasting, trying to a bunch of shirazes, and I was like, oh, no, I don’t smell anything. And it was temporary, but I did some research on it and talked to my doctor. But depression can cause a loss of smell because your brain size shrinks, and the olfactory sense is very sensitive to that. And so I think it was probably related. It scared the heck out of me though, because my nose is my job.
Wendy Mesley (30:37):
We got to wrap up in a minute, but well, at first I was struck by the similarities with, I met my dad when I was 18. You met yours when you were 16. That leaves a bit of a mark, which may become apparent in another 10 or 15 years. But you talk about you devote your book to your mom, and I think my mom, she died two years ago, and I’ve been thinking about a lot about her since. But it’s all about being brave. And I think, Maureen, I think you, and I think that’s why we invite people on the podcast is because they’re trying to be brave.
Maureen Holloway (31:14):
No scaredy pants allowed
Natalie MacLean (31:18):
Just women of ill repute. I love that.
Maureen Holloway (31:21):
Well, that makes us stronger or funny anyway.
Natalie MacLean (31:26):
Absolutely. Just like witches. I think some of these words, we just need to stop being afraid of and embrace. I mean, reclaim is an overused word, but for me, a witch is a wise woman who’s walked through the flames and emerged on the other side knowing the measure of her powers and embrace them, which
Maureen Holloway (31:44):
Is why the book is called, I want to call it the Wine, the Witch and the Wardrobe, but it’s Wine. Wine Witch on Fire. And are you going to be doing a book tour or is it
Natalie MacLean (31:54):
I am. Yeah. So there’s always books and bottles.
Wendy Mesley (31:58):
No, she’s in the field.
Maureen Holloway (32:01):
In the field. She’s outstanding. In her field. Yeah,
Natalie MacLean (32:03):
I’m in the field. You know where to get me.
Maureen Holloway (32:07):
If you’re watching us on YouTube, you’ll see that. That’s a beautiful mural. Natalie McLean, you are just as we’re going to say after you leave, wasn’t she lovely? Thank you so much for being so open and helpful, and now we know what to pair with artichokes. That’s
Wendy Mesley (32:26):
The very least
Maureen Holloway (32:27):
That we’ve learned this week.
Natalie MacLean (32:28):
I’m glad that I could help you with that. That was my number one mission and reason for being here today. If anything, I can save them from their artichoke disasters. Seriously, I so appreciate of you allowing me to chat with you and by extension, your audience. I have binge listened to all of your episodes and absolutely love your take on life and would love to have a glass of wine with you sometime.
Maureen Holloway (32:52):
Oh, that’s almost certain to happen. And your newsletter. Just to subscribe, just go to natalie mclean.com,
Natalie MacLean (33:00):
And sometimes people find that hard to spell. There’s many ways to spell it. So I’ve also got the URL right now, wine Witch on fire.com for the book. I’ve got bonuses for the book. If people purchase it, I’ll send them sign book plates. There’s a free companion guide for book clubs, wine groups, and individual readers. So there’s lots of stuff [email protected].
Wendy Mesley (33:19):
And Maureen and I will be by your house, leave your On Sundays is that
Natalie MacLean (33:24):
Recycling Day is on Fridays.
Maureen Holloway (33:26):
So to book your tickets to Natalie of acclaim. Thank you so much.
Natalie MacLean (33:30):
Oh, thank you both. Cheers.
Maureen Holloway (33:32):
Cheers.
Wendy Mesley (33:32):
Bye. Thank you.
Maureen Holloway (33:35):
Well, she was lovely. She was lovely.
Wendy Mesley (33:41):
Well, some are lovelier than others.
Maureen Holloway (33:43):
They are.
Wendy Mesley (33:44):
I get very nervous talking about the whole cancellation thing that
Maureen Holloway (33:47):
I know you do.
Wendy Mesley (33:49):
I
Maureen Holloway (33:49):
Know, but it’s amazing how many times we’ve had guests on in the past who have, and that’s kind of one of the reasons why we started this podcast, is there are people that come up against and not just women who come up against some serious roadblock in their careers or their personal lives and have to get around it, and we bring empathy to the table because that’s happened to us.
Wendy Mesley (34:13):
Yeah. There were so many other things I wanted to ask her.
Maureen Holloway (34:16):
Tomatoes hard to pair.
Wendy Mesley (34:18):
Well, an asparagus. I mean, I didn’t know
Maureen Holloway (34:21):
That
Wendy Mesley (34:21):
Asparagus and artichokes are in the same family, but only one makes your P funny, so we didn’t get to talk about the really important things.
Maureen Holloway (34:29):
I think
Natalie MacLean (34:29):
We covered it all off.
Maureen Holloway (34:32):
Yeah. You’ve been to wine tastings, haven’t you? Where you do spit into the thing? I’ve been to a few.
Wendy Mesley (34:39):
Yeah. No, my husband’s really into wine, and he would spend his days spitting in the glasses, and I’m like, oh, look outside. I’m not really interested.
Maureen Holloway (34:48):
To me, it’s like, wow, this is good. My reaction is not to spit it. This is good. I’ll have more.
Wendy Mesley (34:55):
Yeah. I don’t know how many times we dropped the hint. We’d like to come over and collect the bottles.
Maureen Holloway (34:59):
Yeah. Well, I think we’d absolutely be welcome to, well not collect. I think she’d like to have a glass of wine. I’d like to have a glass of wine with her. I’d like to have a glass of one with a lot of our guests, so I guess that’s a good thing, except for the ones that don’t drink, but still they could have ginger.
Wendy Mesley (35:15):
Yeah. Well, we didn’t get into the study, so we’ll have to have a conversation about, I don’t think it was two sips a week and it was two glasses a week, or We’ll close
Maureen Holloway (35:25):
That. Right? Yeah, I know. That was maybe the worst news of 2022.
Wendy Mesley (35:29):
Yeah. Well, can’t fix everything at once.
Maureen Holloway (35:35):
Pins up, bottoms up. Bottoms up.
Natalie MacLean (35:39):
Cheers. Bye. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Wendy and Maureen. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with them, links to their website and podcast, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live. That’s all in the show [email protected] slash 2 5 7. Email me if you have a sip tip question or if you’ve read my book or are in the process of reading it at Natalie, natalie mclean.com. I’d love to hear from you. If you missed episode 94, go back and take a listen. I chat with Dragons Den, TV host and entrepreneur, Arlene Dickinson about wine, women and business. I’ll share a short clip with you now to wet your Appetite.
Arlene Dickenson (36:39):
Wines evolve with time, just like stories change and grow bigger with time. There really is no end to the wine story. That’s what I love about it. Every time I open a ball of my wine, it’s a 2010 blend, and when I open it now, I think, see, it’s changing so much and it’s growing and it’s maturing, and it’s fantastic. Just like a good story, right? Excellent, wow. Way to tie them together.
Natalie MacLean (37:08):
If you like this episode, please email or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone who’d be interested in the wines tips and stories we shared you won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Anna Brittain, the executive director of the Napa Green Program, to chat about how wine can make a positive impact on the environment. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a refreshing rose or one that has a little age and wisdom in it. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full-bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at natalie mclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.
